00;00;03;13 - 00;00;15;00
Speaker 1
And I am Roland Smith. And we're joined by our guests Toby Armstrong, who is a pastor in Denver and a long time friend. We just actually used to be on staff together as well. So thanks for being here this morning.
00;00;16;13 - 00;01;52;18
Speaker 2
That we talked about just what deconstruction is experiencing. It gives us consistent pressure to be like me. People. I wonder, like, what project do for me means like I do with all of the things that are construction, you know, disproportionately. I mean, I just can't imagine something interest oriented where you understand yourself. Well, this is just and what that like most of the conversations we've had experiences in construction.
00;01;54;08 - 00;01;55;20
Speaker 2
You have some of the great quotes.
00;01;57;03 - 00;02;18;04
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, this is a book that we've used in a group that meets at my house Monday nights. We just got done with it. And I think it's one helpful tool and resource. Brian McLaren A lot of people will be familiar with that, but it's faith after doubt and he and there's one interesting part where he's looking at paradigm shifts.
00;02;18;06 - 00;02;39;05
Speaker 1
You know, he says for many of us, faith is our map of reality. So you think of a map, it's a map of the universe. And academics often call these mental maps paradigms. And so when a paradigm fails, then we need to seek a new one. And so we go through what we call a paradigm shift, which we use to kind of phrase a whole lot.
00;02;39;05 - 00;03;13;18
Speaker 1
We throw it around. But then when you think about science, for example, you don't think about paradigm shifts because you think science is like it's pure and it's proven and there's formulas and there's math and there's all these things. I know, only I know. But for a lot of us, it's like science. Science is this proven thing. And it was interesting because Albert Einstein had this language when he when he talked about experiencing with the coping of data that took him off the edge of his scientific map.
00;03;13;18 - 00;03;33;24
Speaker 1
So you think of Einstein as like knowing all these formulas and what's true and what's not true and all this. So he would fall off of his map, you know, and this is his quote. It said it was if the ground had been pulled out from under one with no firm foundation to be seen anywhere upon which one could have built.
00;03;34;06 - 00;03;53;02
Speaker 1
So this loss of your your paradigm, this loss of your foundation and your math. And then McLaren goes on to say, If the loss of a scientific map or a model creating anxiety, how much more does the loss of a religious worldview? And so I think that's kind of that's what we're talking about.
00;03;53;15 - 00;04;07;00
Speaker 2
You know what this experience and your construction.
00;04;07;28 - 00;04;42;28
Speaker 3
So I've gone through the process of deconstruction reconstruction for my entire journey, but also, you know, just some context I've been ministering to and working with Millennial and Gen Z for over 20 years. And I would say that they're not the only audience, the only demographic experience in this. I would say that proportionally studies have shown that they're experiencing it more than previous generations and and for a lot of different reasons.
00;04;43;09 - 00;05;21;13
Speaker 3
But they usually come to me and we engage in conversations, usually as a response to trauma experiences. And so what I would say that makes their demographic and generation a little bit different and the world that we're living in right now, a little bit different is whereas people in other contexts and times may experience new construction as a as a way of like this doesn't make sense to me anymore in my context, I need to think this through.
00;05;22;07 - 00;05;45;21
Speaker 3
Now they're deconstructing the list of people that I talk to them out of. I've been abused and experienced abuse and I can't live in this community anymore. And then it gets projected on to God. You know, there's a spiritual aspect to that of if this is what God like, I don't know that I want a relationship with that kind of that or, you know, this doesn't help me.
00;05;46;16 - 00;06;13;11
Speaker 3
And so they often come with a lot of pain. And that's been my own experience as well. Is that my experience with deconstruction is is has been some of the, you know, purely maybe theoretical, theological, intellectual. But the majority in the last decade or so has been driven by trauma and so on. I think that's I mean.
00;06;13;24 - 00;06;33;21
Speaker 1
You're one of the most interesting church pastors and church planters I know because you're actually a church planter that has a pretty cool building and you refuse to meet in it. You all meet you plant at a church in a coffee shop instead. Is that is that kind of connected to this, you know, this PTSD? Maybe this they feel with the institution.
00;06;34;06 - 00;07;15;19
Speaker 3
And in fact, that was part of the journey. We we didn't go full intention to not be in the building that we tried at a very early stages of this kind of community that we're building to get there. And the feedback that we received, you know, we did a large demographic study. This may just be more heightened maybe in our context in South Korea, but in our context, a lot of the feedback we received from people trying to have conversations with and build a community was that I have trauma related to institutional church environments and it's not a safe place for me.
00;07;16;05 - 00;07;35;24
Speaker 3
And so when I walk in the doors of that building and I have, you know, all this, you know, these things that happened to me, which I when I walk in that building, I have an emotional response. And I it's not it's not a place where I feel connected to God. It's not a place for my people, Like I can engage in authentic community.
00;07;36;12 - 00;08;28;01
Speaker 3
And so we had to take that before, you know, just as a community. And we're willing to do with this. Yeah, right. And there are other aspects to it as well of just, okay, it's not a safe place. I don't feel welcome in institutional involvement, but it's also just not in our context, the norm. So people my age probably have spent a small amount of time in church community buildings, but the majority of the time they don't spend there and they'll find community that if you're looking to build up in the community, that kind of construct I feel like or wide skin these my church we're in the midst of a paradigm shift that.
00;08;28;17 - 00;10;06;04
Speaker 2
You're saying maybe part of what we need to do is these are people trying to find a way to get healthy. Yeah, something used used, just deconstruction, deconstruct is deconstruction. You know, you get people deconstruction. Do you think you should just a sociologist like me think it's just, you know, for the people to be ministers when they have this expertise, what do you do with somebody you have?
00;10;09;03 - 00;10;30;20
Speaker 3
I think one of the things that I recognized and some of this has been because of my own journey, so I would say because it's I think one of the challenges of today in this environment in which deconstruction has risen to very prominent place pastors who haven't experienced any of that than experienced trauma.
00;10;31;07 - 00;10;34;04
Speaker 2
Um, I well.
00;10;34;22 - 00;11;02;27
Speaker 3
I think in the way in an institutional church environment, right. So and I would also say that most pastors probably have that maybe they haven't gone through the process of counseling, you know, a healthy process, a holistic process that addresses the theological challenges, the emotional challenges, the spiritual challenges, all that kind of stuff. Having gone through that, then you can respond in an unhelpful way.
00;11;03;19 - 00;11;03;29
Speaker 3
Right.
00;11;04;11 - 00;11;04;24
Speaker 2
Exactly.
00;11;06;06 - 00;11;34;11
Speaker 3
Right. And so I think there are two major responses that I see from pastors. One is the institutional response, right? Because when you come as a say, I'm just a regular church where and I come and I talk to my pastor and I say I'm having doubts. Well, that's that triggers a survival response to us as pastors, right?
00;11;34;15 - 00;11;54;29
Speaker 3
Especially in a season in which the institutional church as a whole is under fire. And we've got challenges from all kinds of different places. Right. And so we have the survival response of I need to protect the institution I can't have if this person needs than maybe a bunch of other people will live with that, maybe introduce questions that I don't have answers for.
00;11;56;05 - 00;12;29;05
Speaker 3
Maybe, you know, so we don't we respond institutionally. The second response that I see is relationally. We can respond out of the relationship that you have that person and say, Wow, I cared about you as a person. How are you doing? What kind of emotions and experiencing? How is I as a as a friend, how can I be there with you in this moment and just hold space for the sacredness of what it is that you're experiencing as a human being?
00;12;30;00 - 00;12;58;10
Speaker 3
Understand that you're made in the image of God and I care about you. So tell me what's going on. Those are two very different responses. And one, I believe, is more helpful and one is very unhelpful. One does what I see Jesus feeling. He enters into the pain of a person, the shame of the person, what they're experiencing, and just sits with them on that.
00;12;58;29 - 00;13;32;08
Speaker 3
Right. And then the other says, Oh, we can't have we can't have you doubting me like that. That's, that's like, you know, from a survival perspective, you're going to infect the rest of this congregation with your doubt. And I may not be, you know, so it's a very different viewpoint. And so for me, I think it's important to recognize and this is where pastors need to do some of their own reconstruction.
00;13;32;16 - 00;14;13;24
Speaker 3
How am I responding? Is it helpful? Is it Christlike? Is it sound? And if it's not, the need to think through all the responses and do some own personal work to be able to be helpful for somebody? Because ultimately, if our goal is to help them be closer to Jesus, to experience the love of God, we have to meet them in the moment, meet them in the reality, authentic moment of what they're experiencing in order to, you know, ever possibly be helpful to them.
00;14;13;27 - 00;14;14;14
Speaker 3
And I'll be honest.
00;14;15;07 - 00;14;43;24
Speaker 1
I'm guessing because you don't want the institutional response at the outpost or your church or your church community that you have learned some things and how you respond may be different than how you I don't know how you used to respond even coming into student ministry where pastors have all the answers. I'm guessing now you can say, I don't know.
00;14;44;06 - 00;15;00;20
Speaker 1
Yeah, but just journey with people. So can you riff on that a little bit? Like what? What? Like what's the culture like being a pastor that can say, you know, I'm not really sure, but we're just going to keep pointed toward Jesus, you know, and figure that out?
00;15;01;03 - 00;15;35;10
Speaker 3
I think so. To rewind a little bit, I think some of this goes into our view of life and our perspective on God and humanity just in general. And I think we lose sight of that. We get very kind of laser focused on this is the only thing that exists. We do that. And first of all, we forget the fact that we're all humans who, through no choice of our own, got dropped by a stork.
00;15;35;11 - 00;16;12;16
Speaker 3
If you believe the Disney bear narrative right onto this planet, that's like hurtling through space and we have to survive. And we we create responses. We create constructs, shelters, if you will, as a means of survival. And some of them are more helpful than others. And so with that kind of viewpoint, we can recognize that all of life is a journey of survival and we encounter different things as our environment changes through no choice of the fault of our own.
00;16;13;00 - 00;16;51;05
Speaker 3
And we have to respond to that. And so I think that viewpoint helps to shift that maybe a little bit of how we respond, because our perspective on this is totally different. If you can let go of maybe what you view of of this responsibility that's been put on us by maybe our perspective of ecclesiology that says that you as a pastor are responsible for the health of wellness, the success, the sustainability of your church community.
00;16;51;05 - 00;17;18;19
Speaker 3
And you can realize that all of this is being held together by God and you're invited into that. You can respond differently. So in our situation, I would say that with that in mind, I recognize that I'm invited to partner with God in the work that he's already doing, and that takes some of the pressure off, but it also introduces a whole lot of anxiety.
00;17;19;00 - 00;17;19;12
Speaker 3
Yes.
00;17;20;11 - 00;17;22;11
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00;17;22;21 - 00;18;01;21
Speaker 3
So with that, I would say that we have a different perspective. And the perspective gives us, I think is a more helpful response because we have permission to say, Well, I didn't create this, I've been invited into this. I was born in the same world that you are. I don't have any answers that you don't have. But what I will say is that yet again, if we go back to that institutional versus relational perspective, an institutional response to that is I characterize as a gatekeeper.
00;18;02;03 - 00;18;31;16
Speaker 3
Right. And we've all experienced this. I would say, you know, we've all run into that. We've all been a gatekeeper at some point, so that since my own like authenticity, I've done this as a way of surviving, trying to keep everything together. But if you look at Jesus life and the way that he interacted with people as a non controlling non-coercive presence in people's lives, he acted more as a guide.
00;18;31;24 - 00;18;49;28
Speaker 3
Right. Let me show you a different way. Come follow me. I've walked a path that I think would be helpful for me. And so with that different perspective in mind, now we're able to position and posture ourselves as leaders differently, that we don't have to be a gatekeeper. We can be a guide.
00;18;50;09 - 00;18;59;17
Speaker 1
And I know that's one of our that's one of those layered values at the outposts that I love is that you guys are guides, not gatekeepers. Yeah.
00;18;59;23 - 00;19;32;14
Speaker 3
Yeah. And so all of this kind of orbits around maybe a different perspective. And I think that's some of what Brian was talking about in his book And some of what you're highlighting is that we have these paradigm shifts and I think one of the biggest things that we do as people in deconstruction is to say, I get permission as a human to see all the things you're feeling, to unpack it with me without judgment.
00;19;32;14 - 00;19;57;04
Speaker 3
And we trust that God's presence is involved in the Holy Spirit guiding us in that process. And because of that, one of the things we've been told throughout Christianity and even theological studies, like you don't get to make sense of God like there are prescribed ways of making sense of God, and then you can only make sense of God those ways.
00;19;58;20 - 00;20;30;21
Speaker 3
You know, we can unpack the literalist ways in in Christianity, but one of the most helpful things that allows people to come to a place where they actually lean into relationship with God is saying that there's not just one way to make sense of God and I'm not going to sit with you in this place as you unpack what you're experiencing, how it's making you feel, how you're making sense of God in this moment.
00;20;30;21 - 00;20;39;17
Speaker 3
And and it's really a journey. So let's take a step together. Let's let's just sit, rest, and then we'll take a step to uniform.
00;20;40;03 - 00;22;34;09
Speaker 2
Hear you saying this is even if I've been told a be. You understand that I think we have to demonstrate that that's so sometimes people are to deconstructing expectation. And then let's see really bring people into some of this public space. What do you think the journey and I will not pay you just to even think, oh, you take this.
00;22;36;04 - 00;22;58;28
Speaker 3
I think for me and this has just been, you know, as we're we've been unpacking some of this some of this comes from self-reflection and conversation around what has been helpful and what's not been helpful. Right. And so so sometimes as a group, you can just say, okay, what's been helpful? What's not been helpful? And you start to pick up some breadcrumbs of the pathway for me.
00;23;00;10 - 00;23;39;02
Speaker 3
But in our perspective, I think we have to first recognize something even like behind that, that pastors and leaders we've been coaching to this idea in ways that we're expected to have all the answers and that we're we're the sole guide for everybody in our church. I think that's toxic and unhelpful at its core. If I can, you know, at a very baseline level, say, okay, just because the Holy Spirit inviting me to sit with this person in their pain doesn't mean that I have to have any answers for them.
00;23;39;20 - 00;24;07;19
Speaker 3
I'm invited into the moment in which God is meeting with those people, and I am in an image bearer who is being present in that moment with them right now. That begins with hope. A feeling where healing begins to take place, or even just the process of grief. When you get some of the permission to sit in that room and say, this happened to me.
00;24;07;20 - 00;24;35;19
Speaker 3
I don't know what to do. I'm disoriented. And then you just give them permission to sit in that place and and for them to experience love. Then after that, the step becomes okay with me. I can see that you're disoriented. We need to help you connect to somebody who who has experienced that disorientation and has found a healthy path forward.
00;24;36;09 - 00;25;12;25
Speaker 3
Right. So that's part of perspective in our community in which there's not one guide. There's there's everybody's a guide to some degree, right? Everybody's walked past and can say, hey, wait a minute, I've walked through that. And if you want to walk with me all unpacked, maybe some of the stuff that I took, some of the detours that I think that you should avoid the pitfalls, the challenges, and that that's a more helpful response because it's well, it takes the pressure off of me as a spiritual leader in our community.
00;25;13;00 - 00;25;32;08
Speaker 3
So I don't have to be the guide for everybody. I'm not the right guy for everybody. I'm a middle aged white guy from Canada. I have my own experiences. I have my own prejudices. I'm on challenges. I am on trauma. Sometimes if the expectation is I'm going to be a guide for everybody, well, my trauma may trigger your trauma.
00;25;32;08 - 00;25;54;24
Speaker 3
It may not be the right fit. Right. But if we can take the permission off and realize that in community, in communities, we have a host of people that God is working through, and that when someone is in the process of deconstruction, our role in that is to sit in that holding moment and be there with them and then to help them hear the voice of God.
00;25;55;02 - 00;26;24;05
Speaker 3
That's number one. Let's reconnect with the Holy Spirit, who is our guide ultimately. But let's connect you to somebody who who you feel comfortable with, who you feel safe with, who you like. That's the onus is on them to select the guide. Right. And in that, there's also no judgment of like, hey, we walk a path together. And I realize that God is taking me in a different direction and this isn't helpful for me anymore.
00;26;24;20 - 00;26;51;15
Speaker 3
Then you find a new one, right? Without judgment, without criticism. And so to me, that's what I think is a more helpful way of looking at this. But it's an entirely different framework of spiritual community than maybe the hierarchical view of life. The pastor is the one who's been to seminary and has all the answers and sets the rules and the expectations.
00;26;53;06 - 00;27;14;25
Speaker 3
And in a lot of ways, I think tragically, we identify too often with Jesus and not enough with the confused disciples. Right? And so we we put ourselves in this position of, oh, I have to be Jesus to these people instead of, well, wait a minute, I'm a human to and I'm experiencing this as we go along as well.
00;27;15;13 - 00;27;25;05
Speaker 3
And while God meaning if you have the need to help create and in some ways facilitate this community, I'm not supposed to be the guide for everybody.
00;27;28;27 - 00;27;53;03
Speaker 1
That it seems scary to me. I mean, not to me personally. No. It would be scary to the pastor. It yeah, right. Because even unintentionally, you know, pastors are shipped out of seminary degrees with, okay, now you need to go, you know, be the leader and make sure this thing is stable and secure and people aren't freaking out and all of that.
00;27;53;03 - 00;28;16;26
Speaker 1
And it's just it's not even fair to put on pastors to do that. I mean, if they were taught to be guides and messed up disciples that, you know, just have a little bit more maybe awareness of how to stay connected with Jesus, that's their that's their part and everything. It would mean it would have solved so much because you know.
00;28;16;26 - 00;28;17;01
Speaker 2
It's.
00;28;17;29 - 00;28;58;14
Speaker 3
Like project this idea of like, oh, this ultimate way is perfect. It's really yes, you know, it's there is more fear in it because like, we don't have a concrete set of instructions of like, here's how you disciple somebody as if that ever existed in worship. But I think the question now becomes, okay, the world is changed. Environments are you know, I would say this is what I point to for a lot of folks is the millennial and Gen Z generation are having a completely different experience with the world than any other generation.
00;28;59;03 - 00;29;25;07
Speaker 3
And so they're making sense of God in different ways through no fault of their own. They didn't ask to be born at this time with this, you know, this environment. But then the question becomes, okay, if they're having a different experience with the world, then we need a different way as a community of Christ, followers of, you know, creating a spiritual environment for them and how do we make sense of God.
00;29;25;07 - 00;29;49;01
Speaker 3
That's helpful. How do we feel? That's helpful. And one of the things that I discovered is that there's other ways those other approaches are helpful. You know, they were helpful for a time in a different, you know, a different world that we lived in, but not for now. And so, yeah, it's messy. Yeah, it's challenging. It's not perfect.
00;29;49;01 - 00;30;20;26
Speaker 3
I'm not saying it's perfect. I'm just saying that it I think of this as we're interacting with people. We're seeing a lot of freedom interacting with people who are saying they have a different concept of Jesus. And I think that's the important part, is that when you sit with somebody and they have a different view of Jesus based on their encounter with you than when you sit with somebody in their painting from an institutional perspective.
00;30;20;26 - 00;30;58;00
Speaker 3
Well, I don't know if that I'm really allowed to think that way or, you know, we start to critique their experience or their emotions or their beliefs instead of just sitting with them. And that's a hard thing to let go of, I think, because now there's a whole other host of problems that come up with this, right? If you're not sitting institutionally, well, you lose control and there is going to be mess and well, another question becomes like, okay, so if somebody connects to a guide and they're not like helping them connect with Jesus, they're connecting with something else.
00;30;58;22 - 00;31;09;13
Speaker 3
So I don't want to pretend like this is just, you know, so fixed away. But it's what we've found to be helpful given our context and how people are going through.
00;31;09;13 - 00;31;53;23
Speaker 2
Things and what we can make sure that we can stop. Well, is just meeting people in this space every step of the way that we can talk.
00;31;56;27 - 00;31;58;27
Speaker 2
So I think I think it's designed to make.
00;32;05;06 - 00;32;08;03
Speaker 1
A messy one. A messy one. Yeah.
00;32;08;15 - 00;32;15;18
Speaker 2
As always, to be sure. Yeah. Yeah. We think it's.
00;32;17;15 - 00;32;46;06
Speaker 1
Well, I mean, you know, as a as a pastor and involved, you know, in leadership, you know like Tobi I think, you know, like what we've been talking about, I have a totally different view now of what it means to be a pastor. I mean, I like, I like the title and I don't like the title. I mean, you know, people will do the pastor role and hey, here's Pastor Roland and and sometimes I'm just like, I don't want to be that.
00;32;46;06 - 00;33;06;10
Speaker 1
I want to be the messy disciple. And maybe I've been to school and studied some theology and things like that that is helpful for the journey. But I don't want to I don't want a hierarchical approach to that. I want a, Hey, you've studied this. Like, what do you think? You know, I'd rather be in that kind of posture.
00;33;06;11 - 00;33;33;11
Speaker 1
So my hope my hope is that more pastors, church leaders, volunteers that are leading things could see themselves as guides and not gatekeepers for their church. You know, that they could release some of that weight and expectation. I found it to be freeing in the messiness. It is messier, but but it's freeing. So I'm hoping more leaders can just kind of be guides.
00;33;51;06 - 00;34;10;26
Speaker 2
Like you guys. It just seems very organic. We we all believe, you.
00;34;12;02 - 00;34;16;10
Speaker 1
Know, And thank you. So appreciate it. Yeah.
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