00:00:00:01 - 00:00:01:58
Speaker 1
Faithful deconstruction. I'm Jesse Cruickshank.
00:00:02:11 - 00:00:31:21
Speaker 2
And I'm Roland Smith. And we're joined by a really good friend of mine and a pastor here in town, Greg Lindsay. Greg Scott, a really moving and incredible story about his deconstruction in terms of ecclesiology, which is a fancy theological word for church and the study of church. And so we're going to talk a little bit about how you've changed your view of faith, community and the things that we're trying to do with that.
00:00:31:21 - 00:00:41:51
Speaker 2
And so I'm really looking forward to the conversation.
00:00:44:42 - 00:01:10:49
Speaker 1
Yeah. So the last episode we talked about how sometimes we have a deconstruction where we leave the group and we own our own faith and we come and realize that maybe the things that I believe are not the same things as my group or faith, family or tribe believed. But we're going to we're going to talk about a different type of deconstruction in this episode in our as we're been thinking about the Tower of Babel through this entire conversation.
00:01:11:13 - 00:01:31:37
Speaker 1
You know, if we remember from the texts that the people, they wanted to be famous, they wanted to keep from being scattered, that was their motivation was to be gathered and known by the people around them, known and respected. And when that unity of mind, because the language was broken, when that unity of mind was broken, they scattered in both their fears for realized, right?
00:01:31:39 - 00:01:51:15
Speaker 1
They're no longer known and they're no longer together. And so it's interesting to me that when we find people who we can communicate with on the other side of that, like they have the same values, we start to clump together and repeat our past success like we try to we clump together and we're like, Oh, we're finally on the same page.
00:01:51:16 - 00:02:23:09
Speaker 1
Let's build another thing. And it's interesting to me that that God continues to resist that journey and interesting, frustrating some of my own deconstruction journey involved in that. But I think about, you know, the people who left, the people who were scattered from building the Tower of Babel, like what did their new life look like as they were trying to find others that they could communicate with as they, you know, tried to repeat and build and and do what they had known.
00:02:23:54 - 00:02:42:00
Speaker 1
And obviously there were no other towers of Babel. So that never worked. But it didn't erase like this new future didn't erase their past. Like, it wasn't a clean blank slate. They took all of that history with them, and they just had to realize at some point that there was a different assignment. There was something different to life.
00:02:42:16 - 00:03:06:05
Speaker 1
So I'm just wondering from you if you could maybe share with our listeners, like, what did it what did it feel like to realize that maybe you needed to build something different or that you know, and I don't to realize that maybe you didn't know exactly what you were supposed to build. Like, maybe talk this through the emotions that you had the beginning of your journey there.
00:03:06:10 - 00:03:29:36
Speaker 3
Yeah. So, you know, I would say that, you know, five years ago, six years ago, this probably would have been the last place you would find me sitting. And the last conversation that I wanted to be in. And I didn't like the word deconstruction. I wasn't comfortable with it. But we got to 2017. I've been at the church on linen for almost 15 years.
00:03:30:23 - 00:03:55:51
Speaker 3
We got to the end of 2017 and we'd experienced some some great growth. We've been in fastest growing churches in America for two years in a row and then so I guess the trigger really came in 16 when God said, don't don't submit your numbers this year for that. And I told our church, I said, we're not going to do it, even though when I saw the numbers, when they came out, we'd have been there again, something and me just said, Check in your sphere, don't do that.
00:03:55:51 - 00:04:14:34
Speaker 3
And so we didn't do it and it was hard for me because I, I wanted to do it. And there was some of that was motivated by great things growing the kingdom. Some of that was motivated by healing my own pain, my own wounding and all of that. So so there was this kind of warning shot across the bow for me, and we got to the end of 2017 and I'll never forget it was end of November.
00:04:15:05 - 00:04:35:06
Speaker 3
I was speaking on a Saturday night and I look down at them and there's a lot of people here. This weekend ended up end of the weekend. We were just shot 30 or so people shot short of breaking 3000 people on a normal weekend on holiday weekend. And it felt good for about 20 seconds. Here we go to break, 3000 next milestone.
00:04:35:33 - 00:05:01:35
Speaker 3
Here we come for here we come five. And then something just something clicked inside of me that says, Oh, no, what are we building? And and it just these people, with all due respect to everybody that was there at the time, these people are consumers. We had because of my own story, we'd created a very safe environment where your story safe, no matter how it reads.
00:05:01:35 - 00:05:21:10
Speaker 3
That's still true to this day. But it was a consumer spectator mentality and my thought was, well, they don't really people don't really know what it means to take up the cross and follow Jesus and of because I haven't really taught it. I'm pressed in so beginning of 2018, I started it even preached differently and we started challenge people to really get in the game.
00:05:21:37 - 00:05:41:56
Speaker 3
And you're not a spectator, you know, you carry the kingdom too. So what we saw happened before COVID ever hit, which, you know, it wreaked havoc on us too, is we lost about 500 plus people a weekend. Our attendance started to decline. It was gradual, but deconstruction started to happen. So I had that moment and then somewhere around that time period I could go back and look.
00:05:42:16 - 00:06:01:21
Speaker 3
I met a guy named John Peterson who's amazing mentor voice in my life, and he started using the word deconstruction with me. And I was uncomfortable because here's the thing. I thought we could do the both and thing. So so I knew I needed we needed to grow people deeper. There's more to it than what we're bringing to people.
00:06:01:37 - 00:06:21:54
Speaker 3
I thought we could preserve this. I was trying to figure out a both and strategy. How do we continue to grow the thing and and do this at the same time? And what I found was they they can't coexist. But when I started first started having those conversations with John, and I loved him, totally uncomfortable with the word pushing back on him.
00:06:21:54 - 00:06:40:48
Speaker 3
I remember him saying great subtraction before multiplication. I was like, because it was gradually happening. It wasn't like, you know, one week I looked up and there's like 500 less people. It was a gradual we started losing people. And so I was I was really kind of put my trying to put my toe in the water, but still wasn't comfortable with the word.
00:06:40:48 - 00:06:49:13
Speaker 3
And when I think about what God's done since then, the last five years, it had been a comfortable journey. I just just has it right.
00:06:49:13 - 00:07:08:56
Speaker 1
I mean, that's that's the interesting thing about that. The second type of deconstruction is that it's much more slow, right? It's a little by little we start to interrogate the values that we have and the fruit that we produce and be like, actually what is happening here, Right? The fruit of my life, the things that I'm I believe in, and the systems that sometimes we build or we participated in.
00:07:09:30 - 00:07:26:42
Speaker 1
And it's not like we wake up one day and, you know, have the shocking moment. It's it's a really slow process where, you know, if the first one we're deconstructing what the group knows and this one, we're deconstructing what we know. And that, I think, is scarier than it is.
00:07:27:18 - 00:07:49:21
Speaker 3
And it was all I'd known. I mean, yeah, you know, I'm not in Europe as a trial attorney, you know, And for ten years before I became a pastor, but grew up in a megachurch in back in Kentucky where I grew up and all I'd ever seen was up into the right. And, you know, when I left that church to go plant a church from 20 years ago now, it was 21,000 people meeting in one campus.
00:07:49:21 - 00:08:06:07
Speaker 3
I mean, intimate. I don't mean to knock the church, but that's all I had known up until the right. And that's what that's what leading a church is supposed to look like. And that's the path that I charted out for myself. And and it was working. And I was comfortable with it, very comfortable. But I started to get uncomfortable.
00:08:07:15 - 00:08:32:29
Speaker 2
Talk a little bit about I mean, because we as pastors, when we have that that feeling, that mentality of we want to we want the church to grow, not we want to grow our church, but even even if we approach that in a healthy way, we want the church to grow. Some people attach their faith to the thing that we're we're building with Jesus.
00:08:32:29 - 00:09:01:35
Speaker 2
Yes. And without discipleship and the teaching like you were talking about and those kinds of things that that Bible metaphorical Bible becomes the identity that gets built. And so when that starts failing, what do they have left? So like, what are your shifting this right now? I mean, I know the story. And so you continue to shift the story of Discovery Church to something different.
00:09:01:35 - 00:09:11:34
Speaker 2
So what are you deconstructing in the structures and how are you helping people see that their faith is not attached to that structure?
00:09:12:07 - 00:09:34:04
Speaker 3
Yeah, so, you know, the short answer is, you know, John Eldridge, his work in Wild at Heart and his other work really has saved my life, my marriage, my family, my ministry, all of that. And I can't give enough credit to that. But so when I thought when God said to me, hey, we're going to we're going to do ministry differently when we come to Colorado, I thought I knew what that meant.
00:09:34:22 - 00:09:55:30
Speaker 3
And it was a story and people's stories and what's happened to them and been said to them and said about them is critical in spiritual formation. It's a critical part of discipleship. It's not just your sin and the things you've done, but it's the things that you've experienced that Jesus wants to bring healing into all that. So I felt one when God said, We're going to do this differently, that's what he meant.
00:09:55:48 - 00:10:24:27
Speaker 3
And so I was good with that and we were building a megachurch on that. Yeah. And then this thing happened and what I started the whole idea of being a saint. People started to come to the surface. For me, my mentor, John, gave me a book. It was called From Megachurch to Multiplication. And I read the story and I mean, bless his heart, Chris, the guy that wrote it, he he made a decision much like what we're talking about in a church that was more than 10,000.
00:10:26:13 - 00:10:43:28
Speaker 3
You talk about these constructs and it's a story and it scared the crap out of me, honestly. I mean, I started to read that, but by God started hook me on. There was something to it that just was so true. And so I'm still in that battle of you have a can I preserve this? And and what I really discovered was I can't.
00:10:43:28 - 00:11:00:37
Speaker 3
We can't. And and so we started to walk into not only let's take a bear cross and follow Jesus, but you're the sent people. Stop it. What God's doing in other parts of the world that we're not seeing here in America. And and so we started to discipleship, started to come to the service. And really, you are sent.
00:11:01:08 - 00:11:25:44
Speaker 3
I sent people in and then more people except, you know, and now we're we're in the middle of and I had to say this, I've got great elders, great leaders in our church. Who are they happen to be really good friends of mine, but they're not. Yes man. They they asked me hard questions and pushed me. They've journeyed very closely with me and all this and been a sounding board for me and a really welcome.
00:11:25:44 - 00:11:42:48
Speaker 3
What's God putting on your heart and where are we headed and what do you think? And praying together and all that stuff. But so now we're headed towards deconstructing once again and trying to to break down. We've got a building, you know, we're not a we're not a wealthy church. We've always struggled with finances as a church and giving.
00:11:42:48 - 00:12:03:34
Speaker 3
We reach a lot of people who are far from God and and just who don't show up and automatically give. And so we start looking at things and we realize one of the most underutilized assets that we have, the most underutilized asset is our building. And 65,000 square feet of grocery store. Totally got it remodeled. Great place in the city not too far from here.
00:12:04:06 - 00:12:20:27
Speaker 3
And we're like, and I had this vision when we first moved into the building eight years ago but couldn't really get the team excited about it. But I said, This building is sitting dark and empty way too often. How do we make this a hub for the community So, long story short, Friday of last week, Discovery sign has come down.
00:12:20:27 - 00:12:38:31
Speaker 3
It's going to move around the corner to our offices are and we are now the S.O.S. City Hub. If you drive by it now, you'll see that that sign. And you know, we're talking about we know our city saying we need preschools in the city, we need event space in our city. Our city's growing pretty rapidly and there's not near enough event space.
00:12:38:31 - 00:13:02:45
Speaker 3
People are going to Pueblo to have events, co op workspace, coffee shop in the lobby, conference rooms, access to those concerts, events, you know that. So we had we're totally reinventing the building itself, which is deconstructing for some of our tribe. Mm hmm. Yeah. We had a vision night last month. I announced what we're doing. I put a picture up and the sign had changed it, but I put a picture of our building with the new sign on it.
00:13:03:07 - 00:13:12:07
Speaker 3
And it was the weirdest crowd dynamic I've ever spoken to because half the crowd was losing their mind cheering and the other half was gasping. You could hear.
00:13:12:07 - 00:13:12:21
Speaker 2
It.
00:13:13:12 - 00:13:31:28
Speaker 3
And so there again, it's like, Wait a minute, this is our church. No, it's a building where our church happens to meet. So we're the church that meets at the Hub. Yeah, we own it, but it's a community outreach. And so what I told our people is, listen, we're not only sending you out saying, get out there and and live out your faith where you live and work and play.
00:13:31:28 - 00:13:40:48
Speaker 3
We're inviting them in here. So if you're going to be a part of this tribe, either way, we're going to we're going to we're going to interact with people. And so the deconstruction continues.
00:13:41:27 - 00:14:00:19
Speaker 1
So if if discipleship is a journey of identity and deconstruction is a transition and how we form that identity, what are some of the key things that have changed in your identity as a child of God, as a person with an assignment that, you know, I believe we all have a mission or assignment. It's just different, you know, places that were sent to.
00:14:00:37 - 00:14:12:09
Speaker 1
So you've sent you're sent to the church, right? So you're sent to ecclesiology. But how how is your identity, both as a minister and a child of God, changed in this?
00:14:12:30 - 00:14:34:57
Speaker 3
Hmm, that's a great question. You know, I know you've done a lot of work in this area, Jesse. I've come to realize that being a pastor Shepherd is a part of who I am. I don't think it's primarily who I am. And I think, you know, leading and shepherding a tribe of kingdom people when when pastor is not the primary thing on you.
00:14:34:57 - 00:14:54:12
Speaker 3
And this is something I've discovered in the last five years, too, that the whole, you know, entrepreneurial apostolic thing on me can create a problem. We were a staff retreat back in August and I was sitting there and we were doing some story work in a group. We divide up in groups and four and each other and do story work.
00:14:54:12 - 00:15:12:52
Speaker 3
And it came to me all of a sudden I've been leading this thing for almost 15 years, just like Greg. People don't like change like you do. Mm hmm. Yeah, it was like it was like this is earth shattering moments. My gosh. I mean, I told our staff that they're not there. All of us in our life. And, like, you're just now getting like you said, here's this change.
00:15:12:52 - 00:15:35:00
Speaker 3
Let's go here. And so but, you know, I think that to answer your question, so my identity not being in being a pastor or a shepherd kind of God taking working with me in that, you know, identity as a beloved son is a is a part of my journey. And John Eldridge's work is all about identity and who Christ and and being a beloved son.
00:15:35:00 - 00:15:57:39
Speaker 3
And but the example is so God keeps to deconstructing everything else. I'm trying to build and find my identity in. I was with John, my mentor, a few weeks ago, and I was lamenting about, you know, how the fundraising was doing for the city, how vision and in all of this stuff. And he just like him and he's like me, and that's what he does.
00:15:58:08 - 00:16:18:45
Speaker 3
And he goes, Great, I want you to get to the point where you're just settled. You're at peace because you're a beloved son. And if God's giving you the vision, which is clear to me that he has, he's going to fill it. He's going to fund it. But I want you to be in a settled space. And what I realized was driving home from that meeting is an office.
00:16:18:45 - 00:16:37:01
Speaker 3
And it came to me that what I do is I say, Yeah, yeah, I'm a beloved son, I'm good, I'm good. But then things happen or don't happen in the story that leave me feeling so unsettled. Now, as a leader, I realize I got to lead with strength and confidence and I and I can't say, Oh my gosh, the money's not coming in or whatever to the people I'm leading.
00:16:37:01 - 00:16:55:57
Speaker 3
And it's not I'm not being phony. I'm just trying to lead them with strength. But on the inside I get shaky and rather than resting and Jesse resting and I'm a beloved son, what I do is I wait for the next good news and then I'm okay. For example, Mike calls me and says, Somebody just gave $10,000 towards city.
00:16:56:06 - 00:17:16:40
Speaker 3
All of a sudden I reset, I'm good. And now I can be a beloved son because the circumstances are favorable. And so I'm just like externally, I don't carry myself that way. But internally it's this up and down battle. It's just like, No, pull your identity away from how it's going and all that and just rest in who I've created you to be, who you are.
00:17:16:57 - 00:17:23:40
Speaker 3
I'm giving you this vision. I'm going to find it and fill it and just, just be be at peace. And that I'm still I'm still on.
00:17:23:45 - 00:17:40:40
Speaker 1
And I just want to ask a real quick follow up, because when I went through this deconstruction, I was also leading a ministry, was also, you know, one of a co-leader of the ministry. And and I was really struggling on whether or not God answered prayer, like, did he do anything that I ever asked him to because he wasn't like I was just like, why do I even pray?
00:17:41:04 - 00:17:57:54
Speaker 1
He you're going to do whatever you want to do. And I spent three years leading a ministry but not praying. Yeah. And I was I felt very hypocritical. I mean, God and I were close, but we weren't talking, or at least I wasn't talking to him. Sure. So I felt his presence and I knew he was around. So it wasn't like I had disassociated from God.
00:17:57:54 - 00:18:19:06
Speaker 1
But but I was definitely having this, like, background crisis of faith while I was leading the ministry. And I felt like a hypocrite, even though the Lord didn't let me leave, you know, like I wasn't out of I didn't feel like I was in the wrong spot. So without. But by asking you to be vulnerable, I'm going to say without asking you to be too honorable.
00:18:19:06 - 00:18:45:54
Speaker 1
But in order to ask you to be vulnerable, like tell me a little bit about some of the things that you've kind of had to carry as well as you've walked through this that might surprise some people or at least name some things that would give people hope that that those things that they're walking through aren't really bad or, you know, a sign they're going to hell or that they've lost their faith like not misinterpreting a struggle in faith with a loss of faith.
00:18:46:19 - 00:19:06:27
Speaker 3
Yeah. You know, my journey with God is, you know, I haven't been. This is not. I'm here. You're there. Anything like that? You know, through this journey, I haven't stopped praying. I haven't stopped seeking. I mean, we all have seasons, I think, where it's more dry than it is, others in our rhythms aren't necessarily what we would love for them to be or what the church says they should be.
00:19:07:21 - 00:19:24:59
Speaker 3
But for me, in this journey, you know, I crash and burn in ministry and that's a long story. We talk about that another time, but a part of this was and a lot of church heard a lot of pastor hurt and a lot of a lot of words that came to me. You'll never be in ministry again if you're ever in ministry again.
00:19:24:59 - 00:19:45:54
Speaker 3
God, I never blessed. So I got all that baggage when I come to Colorado, I call it the time to orphans found each other because nobody really wanted me to be a pastor. And this tribe was a failing church plan of about 80 people, five and a half years old and was trending towards disaster. And so it's a part of the journey for me still is.
00:19:45:54 - 00:20:19:35
Speaker 3
I've always I've always had I've had to fight for almost 15 years now that, you know, I'm pastors in my title, but there's an asterisk beside me and it's that yeah, God, God barely let me back in to ministry. And that, you know, my assignment is less than. And so when hard challenges come and we take bold steps towards a different vision or steer or something, all the challenges that that come with that and they do come become it's hard for me not to personalize that.
00:20:20:00 - 00:20:38:25
Speaker 3
And and it's just like, of course, you know, this is what you should expect. And so so there's beloved son and then his beloved son, Asterix. And that's that's my journey. And I think John called that out in me a few weeks ago. Still is like this. We still got work to do to work to do on this front.
00:20:38:25 - 00:20:59:40
Speaker 3
But, you know, questions and doubts and fears and and having a lot of friends in ministry who cast vision. And, you know, the thing that came after me really hard when I was lamenting with my friend John was you're just not a vision caster, right? You just you don't inspire people. You don't inspire kingdom things to move forward.
00:21:00:01 - 00:21:20:56
Speaker 3
That was the assault on my heart on that particular day, which in the end because of my story, like, Yep, that's true, that's true of who you are. And so it but it just feels like to me it feels like everything and we're doing it intentionally because we believe this is where God's leading us. But it feels like there's still a sense of unraveling like things are.
00:21:22:21 - 00:21:52:21
Speaker 3
To some extent, spinning out of control. Yeah. And in measurable are are getting taken out of play. And I find so much comfort in what I measure. And I think what God's teaching me in this is that, you know, he's leading me to a place where we can't measure, we shouldn't measure, we shouldn't even try to measure. And, you know, I read a book that I read and as you mentioned it earlier in this process that messed with me.
00:21:52:21 - 00:22:14:43
Speaker 3
And I know Dave Ferguson, he maker that a friend of mine said, man, I read this. I thought about you. And I don't know if he meant that in a good or bad. That was what I realized. And it scared me. It really scared me because I realized that because of my story and other things, I've been trying, you know, until 17 anyway, was trying to be the hero.
00:22:14:47 - 00:22:40:33
Speaker 3
Yeah. And so now looking at the relationships that I have, I'm pretty young team, but, you know, pouring into them is becoming more and more simple. But everything that I thought it was going to be and I'm not getting any younger. And so, you know, you're training up until the right and you're getting older and you're like, great, this is going to get to this point and I'm going to ride it out and then boom, and then you get in your late fifties and you start making these decisions.
00:22:40:35 - 00:23:00:39
Speaker 3
I don't make them on my own to blow it all up. And, you know, and in, you know, Colbert hits and 2017 and I started teaching just following God and what he's asking us to do, it's cost us lots and lots and lots of people. And so wrestling with that and getting older and like, what? What what am I what am I doing?
00:23:00:46 - 00:23:01:31
Speaker 3
I mean, it's.
00:23:02:31 - 00:23:16:39
Speaker 2
Yeah, but I'm guessing, I'm guessing from a little bit but from knowing you and talking to you like your vision of where you're going with this particular faith community that God's giving you maybe is sharper than it's ever.
00:23:16:39 - 00:23:17:48
Speaker 3
Been. It is. Hmm.
00:23:17:58 - 00:23:37:48
Speaker 2
So it's interesting. And we were talking when we talked with Toby in a previous episode, Pastor in Denver. Yeah. I mean, he was talking about it was is a little bit like walking out of the bounded set into sentence that kind of thinking it gets messy. And Toby was saying, you know, we're just as pastors, we're just going to have to be comfortable with messy with with people that are deconstructing.
00:23:37:48 - 00:23:40:19
Speaker 2
And yeah, and these generations that are coming up.
00:23:40:19 - 00:23:59:09
Speaker 3
And I you know, I was halfway there. We were comfortable with messy to the extent that, you know, when you when story becomes a central piece of the church and people's stories are welcome there and they really believe that the trick is they bring them right. And it is a total show. I mean, it is it's a mess.
00:23:59:09 - 00:24:14:00
Speaker 3
And so we were used to walking in that and I thought, this is messy. And then we got to 2017 and I and I started to understand, you know what? You're right. And I don't even know what mercy is. Every day it seems like it gets redefined for me. But my comfort level with that is grow.
00:24:14:08 - 00:24:40:19
Speaker 2
I mean, it seems like the irony was as a church staff and our structure, we're not messy. We have we have a foundation for you to bring your messy story to. Exactly. Now it's, hey, we're messy just like you. Yes. In a different way. So, I mean, you've got an institution that's deconstructing and inviting, deconstructed people to kind of walk in and figure out.
00:24:40:37 - 00:24:43:31
Speaker 1
It's like moving from the big, beautiful hospital to a field.
00:24:43:31 - 00:25:01:15
Speaker 3
Hospital. Yeah. And I always called us a mash unit. You know, I didn't I didn't intend for my my story, my crash and burn to be so public. But when I got to discover me in 2008, I found out two days after I preach my first sermon that they hadn't told the church my story of crashing the ministry.
00:25:01:55 - 00:25:19:58
Speaker 3
So I said, We've got to do that sooner rather than later. I did it in my fifth week and half the church left and the next three months. I didn't intend for that to be the thing. But then my story was public and it's been ever since. And so people come on the weekends like, We like this. This place is safe because that guy right there, he screwed up just like me.
00:25:19:58 - 00:25:32:11
Speaker 3
So yeah, staff wise, we may not have lived it out to the extent we could have a messy. Yeah, but it's always been a thing. But I think it's just continuing to be redefined in the journey as we go.
00:25:32:16 - 00:25:47:20
Speaker 1
So for you, as you're moving forward, you know, because. Because there's deconstructing and there's reconstructing, there's the things that we're leaving behind and the things that we're moving towards. And and I think you've shared a bit about what you're moving towards, but what are you kind of over like like what are you just really ready to leave behind you?
00:25:48:48 - 00:25:55:31
Speaker 3
You know, I am not really it's it's funny, Roland and I disagree on some things.
00:25:56:43 - 00:25:57:12
Speaker 1
That's great.
00:25:57:14 - 00:26:03:55
Speaker 3
I'm not I'm not ready to let go of our razors. I forgive you. You know.
00:26:03:55 - 00:26:06:09
Speaker 1
That's not what I thought you were going to say. There you go.
00:26:07:04 - 00:26:35:15
Speaker 3
But I'm glad to say, you know, but the weekend to me, I mean, what I was built a part of building and the weekend was what was most important. The weekend experience was what was most important so that it's changed. It's not. And I'm saying that and now we still try to be excellent on the weekend. The thing about our weekend experience is because of the safe place that we are and stories out there and it's public and I feel like we live out.
00:26:35:15 - 00:26:51:01
Speaker 3
It's a MASH unit and so there's rescue happening on the weekend. So it's an important piece in my mind. Just the not the most important piece which which takes us to, you know, just just really grabbed it. I think one of the things that cause Roland and I are really connect over the last couple of years is, you know, this idea of being a saint.
00:26:51:01 - 00:27:08:52
Speaker 3
People that that's not that's something that I never embraced. I mean, because in reality, if I'm being honest, I need you to come to us on the weekend for help because we can get you what you need. And there's a dependance on this thing that I'm trying to build. So yeah, invite your friends, you know, and so and type.
00:27:08:52 - 00:27:09:21
Speaker 3
Yeah, Yeah.
00:27:09:23 - 00:27:10:58
Speaker 1
Cause I need both you and your money.
00:27:10:58 - 00:27:27:45
Speaker 3
You and your money. So. So the whole currency thing. I talked about it in the last year. One week when I was preaching, I said, You can go out there somewhere in cyberspace and find me preaching a message. I'll come and see, because it used to be a core value of my church and friends, a great church, big church and growing church.
00:27:27:45 - 00:27:43:42
Speaker 3
And they had come and see. I like I like that. Let's do that. So I've there's a message out there somewhere by Greg Lindsey on come and see and the whole idea of go and be we really start to embrace that and so equipping people to do that, you know we're connected and partnered up in Pando with Roland and what they're doing.
00:27:44:33 - 00:28:08:58
Speaker 3
We're doing some DMS stuff. I'm going to Africa next month to see where the gospel is exploding, one person to another in the Ivory Coast of Africa. Yeah, with a pastor friend of mine in Kansas City to see to see what's really happening. That's the direction. That's the direction that we're moving in. There's a piece of that that is just not comfortable for me because it's it's foreign, it's foreign ground, but it is fulfilling.
00:28:08:58 - 00:28:49:57
Speaker 3
It's it's rewarding. I love it. I'm seeing hearts come alive. I'm seeing less people on the weekends. I mean, right or wrong, it's not as fun to speak to 400 people as it is the 800 it's in. And maybe that's part of the brokenness that still lives in me. But but we're on the we're on the right track, really, teaching our people how to live this stuff out, you know, not give them a formula or, you know, and we want women to walk in this organic, not linear path, because everything in me wants to make it a linear give me the five step plan and we can run the play.
00:28:49:57 - 00:29:11:58
Speaker 3
And just to to walk in the walk with new arms of God and, and what he's got for us. So, you know but you know it's funny because my mentor since is that John said, Hey, I want you to start measuring yourself against yourself. So I haven't arrived, okay? Because, well, he catches me saying, but man, five years ago this were the train wrecked me and here I am.
00:29:11:58 - 00:29:26:49
Speaker 3
I'm better. And I am. I'm continuing to walk with God. And it get it better this stuff. But I've got such such a long way still to go as a leader. And we we have such a long way to go still as a church. So I feel like we're just scratching the surface of what what it's going to be.
00:29:27:25 - 00:29:48:54
Speaker 1
Well, Greg, I mean, I want to thank you for sharing with us, because I think this just really illustrates that the reality of this second type of deconstruction is that we have to face the truth, that we're not as cool or as unique as we thought, and that our mark upon the world, you know, to be a single handed world changer is it's just not realistic and it's actually not God's goal for us, right?
00:29:49:13 - 00:30:14:24
Speaker 1
So we're to embrace the reality and reconcile ourself to the truths in Ecclesiastes, he's right. I've seen it all fade away. Good things happen to bad people, bad things happen to good people. And all I know is that I have to love the Lord on the other end of that. So just part of that deconstruction. I mean, so my hope is that through you sharing this, that people who are walking through this deconstruction can see, oh, it actually doesn't mean failure.
00:30:14:24 - 00:30:33:05
Speaker 1
The enemy in myself will tell me that, that it's failure, that all of this is a result of failure. I haven't succeeded my calling. I'm not worthy of my calling. You know, all of those lies that come in to diminish us and really God's just actually changing the metric. Yes. And so my hope is that people would feel okay with that.
00:30:33:05 - 00:30:35:40
Speaker 1
Yeah. So, I mean, what's what's your hope, Roland?
00:30:36:28 - 00:30:57:48
Speaker 2
You know, I think out of this conversation, well, I have a selfish hope because we're working together now and I'm excited about this city. Have community space. And so, you know, I do I do share a hope with Greg that this that God will help this thing flourish, that we can, you know, walk with God in this and and reach more of our community.
00:30:58:01 - 00:31:19:48
Speaker 2
You know, I think as a conversation, I realize that different people are going to be listening to this or watching it. And, you know, some are individuals going through this construction, but some are pastors and leaders that are are listening to this. And I hope they hear your heart. And that big shift from trying to build Tower of Babel to to build something.
00:31:19:48 - 00:31:30:39
Speaker 2
And it may be a little bit messy, but it is more participatory in the kingdom. Yes. And I loved how you said just embrace the wildness of God. You know, I think that's what we need to do.
00:31:31:12 - 00:31:34:46
Speaker 1
Yeah. How about you? What's your hope? Why? Why are you sharing your story with us today?
00:31:35:20 - 00:31:59:45
Speaker 3
You know, I because I think the short answer is I totally I totally believe in the word word. Now, deconstruction. I'm seeing the fruit of subtraction before multiplication, even though I didn't even want that to be in the realm of possibility for us. You know, it's like addition leads, multiplication. That's that's the formula that I was that I was working.
00:32:00:46 - 00:32:25:08
Speaker 3
It didn't work. But there's there's, there's life. I'm experiencing life in ministry like I never have before. And, you know, this industry, you know, for over 20 years. And it's there's a richness, there's a freedom, there's a joy. I feel renewed passion. You know, I have Pastor friends who come in through COVID, thought they had five, seven, ten more years in them.
00:32:25:57 - 00:32:48:21
Speaker 3
And one of them, you know, Easter's is last weekend, two or three of them have said, I'm out in two years. I don't have that. I mean, because of this experience, as painful as it has been, God has reinvigorated me for the kingdom and showing me things that look differently. But I'm excited about the future of the church.
00:32:48:21 - 00:33:12:09
Speaker 3
I think everything that God needs to do something crazy good with the American church is still there, and it's not going to be measured by, you know, tables and seats on any given weekend and buildings across the country. But this this is the this is the right conversation. And as painful as the process has been for me, it's something now that I'm able to embrace and actually see the fruit of.
00:33:12:09 - 00:33:21:03
Speaker 3
So I'm I'm excited about and excited about this conversation. I'm excited about what God's doing in the world and I want to see more of it here in our city. So.
00:33:21:41 - 00:33:42:27
Speaker 1
Greg, thank you for being with us. Really appreciate you coming and sharing your story with us and inviting us into your journey. Thank you for tuning in for Faithful Deconstruction. As a listener to this podcast, we wanted to make available to you a free download entitled Six Questions of Faithfulness. There are questions that help you both honor God and the journey you're on.
00:33:42:58 - 00:33:51:23
Speaker 1
You are not alone and you're not lost. Even if it might feel like it, go to who all object code for access to our free resources today.
![[Who]ology](https://kajabi-storefronts-production.kajabi-cdn.com/kajabi-storefronts-production/themes/2147698039/settings_images/8AtaodYzQ7SYujSbvXms_Who-logo-white.png){kind=logo}
