00;00;00;00 - 00;00;25;00
Unknown
Welcome to Faithful Deconstruction. I'm Jesse Cruickshank, and I am Roland Smith. And we are going to talk today and have a conversation about the role of community and kind of share a little bit of our own stories of deconstruction.
00;00;28;05 - 00;00;57;09
Unknown
In the last episode, we heard from Greg and we heard about how he had deconstructed the way he thought about church and and just that fantastic and interesting and painful journey of just changing it all up and realizing that the things that he held most dear weren't finding an expression and that maybe he had he had chosen some paths wrong, or at least that there was a better way.
00;00;57;22 - 00;01;18;28
Unknown
And it's hard to kind of get over yourself. Yeah, a little bit. So you and I have both done that, and I want to talk about that, but I want to take us back before we do to this very fascinating part about the Tower of Babel story, and that is that it's located in Genesis 11 and it is in the middle of the lineage of Shem.
00;01;19;11 - 00;01;42;23
Unknown
So Shem is one of the descendants of Noah. And so you have the world repopulating and it gives some of the lineage of Shem, and then it has a Tower of Babel and like this little vignette of nine verses, and then it kind of repeats the lineage of Shem again and takes that to Abraham. So by chapter 12, you have the call of Abraham.
00;01;43;15 - 00;02;06;18
Unknown
And, you know, when I sitting with the scriptures and just kind of letting the them so kind to me in the Lord teach me, I was like, What is that about? Because I'm always interested in the order in which God does things. And when things are like my editor would like, change it, I'm like, What? So if God doesn't have a very good editor to make sure that they're not repeating themselves and things are in the right order, then, then there has to be purpose.
00;02;06;28 - 00;02;31;06
Unknown
I'm always curious about the promise. So what and what it says to me and I'm interested what what it says to you. Because what it says to me is that, yes, the world is repopulating and and the people are coming together, but then they get scattered. And it moves for me. It moves from that that scattering into the beginning of the promise of reunification.
00;02;31;25 - 00;03;01;15
Unknown
So that, you know, we go to Abraham and then the covenant God made with Abraham and saying, okay, no, actually you're my people. You may be scattered across the world. You may have no common language, and this may have been the most disrupting thing. I mean, after the flood in a long time, I don't even know the timeframes, but the promise that that desire for us not to be scattered and to belong to one another is actually the way God made us.
00;03;01;26 - 00;03;22;26
Unknown
And so we want to talk about community. And and ultimately, I see that the beginning of the journey that ends with Jesus and that Jesus is actually the thing that is the fulfillment of the promise of reunify. And that kind of unites us. Yeah. And unites us like Ephesians for talks about. But I mean, that's kind of how I hold that, but I'm interested in how you interpret that.
00;03;22;26 - 00;04;05;20
Unknown
I definitely see the community aspects of that. And in the driving back to community, I think one of one of the most interesting things I would notice out of that is that they're never really apart from God's story. And so I think I think oftentimes when we you know, when we deconstruct or we have doubts or, you know, we're leaving one community of faith and trying to figure out something else, or you've got Greg trying to change the ethos of his church or whatever, you almost feel like your exiting God story, like, you know, and then you're merging back in with something new.
00;04;07;11 - 00;04;30;06
Unknown
Then I really just wonder. I mean, you're always part of God's story. And I mean, whether deconstruction is caused by God, I mean that's way above my pay grade. I don't know. But I know that he redeems things. And so I think wherever we are, what Bible kind of says to me is that there's this redemptive process back to community.
00;04;30;06 - 00;04;59;03
Unknown
He's always part of the story and that he never like, we don't we can't wander too far away from him like he never just lets us go, right? He's always there trying to. Yeah, redemption. I think that's the perfect word. You know, in my own deconstruction, it's that truth that I think has chased me even. You know, there was a part of my deconstruction where I did run away from God, but he didn't run away from me.
00;04;59;04 - 00;05;19;24
Unknown
I mean, I shared a little bit about the part of my deconstruction when we were talking and then but but that was after a different season where I had run away. And so I knew I knew he wasn't going to leave me and he was going to let me go. So even while I was sorting other things out with him, I, you know, each, each time I deconstructed it, built upon each other.
00;05;19;24 - 00;06;11;11
Unknown
And I didn't lose the truths that I had earned or gained or really realized in the one beforehand. So what about what about you? What is what is your thoughts about God changed as you've been through different seasons of the construction? Well, I mean, and I think I said this in episode one, but where where I was in my twenties, let's say a new Christian, you know, But in ministry and having not grown up in the church where I am now is very different in even the way I think about whether it's theology, ecclesiology, mis theology, you know, all these components of, you know, ministry and God's work in the world.
00;06;11;11 - 00;06;42;08
Unknown
But some I'm in a very, very different place. And we were talking earlier that, you know, what I would say is that deconstruction has allowed me to have a more fulfilling faith now. I mean, my faith is more alive. It's freer. To me, it's like it has less of a weight on my shoulders. It is definitely messier. But what I've been able to do is find a comfort in the messiness.
00;06;42;17 - 00;07;08;01
Unknown
I don't ask the same questions of the Bible. I don't ask the same questions of my church. I don't, you know, my metrics and the way I view those things have changed. But it's but it's given me more resonance in my relationship with God. I don't know if that makes it. That makes sense. So so at 60, I feel like I'm in the best place I've ever been in my faith in.
00;07;08;08 - 00;07;41;05
Unknown
And I might say I have fewer answers about like, well, what does that really mean in the Bible? Was that historical or metaphorical? All those kinds of things. I think I have fewer answers for someone, but I feel like I know more about God than I ever did. So. So because you've been been through these processes and you've allowed God to to reform your identity and teach you more about yourself and teach you more about him, it led you to create this community that meets at your house.
00;07;41;05 - 00;08;02;20
Unknown
I mean, tell us a little bit about that because because we want to we want to encourage people and create and be part of communities that hold us while we ask questions and maybe deconstruct and and just journey with us. So what does that been like? Yeah, And I don't know if, like, I created this community or if God created the community for me.
00;08;03;14 - 00;08;30;19
Unknown
It's a you know, it's just like anything like that. You're blessed by what you feel led to start, you know. But it was during COVID and our neighborhood was in upheaval, like neighborhoods around the country, and people couldn't meet in churches or small groups or those kinds of things. And, you know, I think at that time you could meet outside in groups of ten or whatever the rural was.
00;08;31;01 - 00;08;52;24
Unknown
And so I just I went on this little thing called Next Door, which a lot of people have next door apps and stuff. And it's just a communication device for your city, your neighborhood. If you if you have next door, you should go find it because it's the best way to to kind of look initially into stuff. And I just I just put out an invitation.
00;08;52;24 - 00;09;17;11
Unknown
I said, Hey, if you're if you're a Christ follower and you're finding COVID and all these things, these tensions in your life. Would anyone like to meet down at the park? We've got a park about two blocks away, and I'll bring coffee and we can just talk about, you know, all this stuff that's going on in our lives and kind of get it off her chest and all that.
00;09;17;11 - 00;09;48;06
Unknown
And so, you know, there were a few people that said yes. And so I came down here to our church community, made coffee, took it down to the park and met some people and met a couple of younger girls that just like told their whole story transparently. And it was you know, it was one of those deconstructive stories that was from kind of a church abuse structure.
00;09;49;07 - 00;10;14;20
Unknown
And out of that, one of them asked, you know, you know, are you going to do any more of those meetings or something like that? And so we just we put it together and sort of meeting on many nights and some different friends started, Hey, could I be part of that or could I come to that? And we've had a couple new members and an older couple that have started coming.
00;10;14;20 - 00;10;34;15
Unknown
And, you know, it reminds me of some of the things you've said. We're like in babble, you know, you can kind of imagine these people kind of getting blown out, you know, from from this community. And they're kind of wandering, looking for themselves, like looking for who is like me, you know, and what part of the group I'm part of now.
00;10;35;00 - 00;11;01;16
Unknown
And I think what it's done is it's helped just create a safe place for people to say, Oh, there's some people like me so they can enter into a discussion. And I mean, and I've, I've been to seminary, I've done all, you know, then all this study and all this stuff, so I could easily try to take that over with, Well, here's what you should believe or here's what the Bible says or here, you know, whatever.
00;11;03;01 - 00;11;30;24
Unknown
And so I think what my deconstruction has helped me do is sit with people like that. And it's whether they're saying, I don't know if I believe in God anymore to I really love Jesus and I hate the church, or I'm trying to figure out a way back into the church, whatever it is, I'm able to sit with all of those, you know, and and understand.
00;11;30;24 - 00;11;53;15
Unknown
And so it's been good for me in my continued journey. And I think it's helped give a space for safe conversation. And the fruit of it is there are some redemptive stories of people finding their way back into community. I mean, we heard that from Nicole. Mm hmm. She's part of that group. And that was her first step back in.
00;11;53;15 - 00;12;34;15
Unknown
And now she's kind of, you know, come into a larger, you know, worship gathering, which, I mean, that's not the that's not necessarily the goal. But I think what it points to is that she's saying, oh, I can be with the people of God. It's not necessarily like my old experience, you know? Right. So finding new the new community and the people who who can be with you, where you're at, I mean, is there anything from your past, from your own journey of deconstruction that you remember and you try, you know, like like, was there anybody who journeyed with you well that you then try to model and and do the same thing?
00;12;35;05 - 00;13;16;02
Unknown
No, I mean, my own personal deconstruction was a quiet one because I was on church staffs where the kinds of things that I was, you know, wondering and thinking about probably would have made me suspect, you know, in the community that I was a you know, and and I think the question the questions that I was asking were perhaps questions that other pastors and church leaders have thought.
00;13;16;09 - 00;13;50;07
Unknown
Hmm. But also never felt freedom to discuss, you know, and I think God can handle our doubts, but somehow we can't let God handle our, you know, other people's doubts or our doubts. And and so I you know, there were podcasts, I listened to her books I would read or, you know, different things. And and not growing up in the church, I didn't have like a I didn't have a baggage or a tradition that held those things.
00;13;50;07 - 00;14;15;13
Unknown
And so I was a kind of a freer thinker, you know. But I think, you know, there was a point in my story where we kind of left the church. We opened a coffee shop, planted a little missional community, and didn't think that we would go back into the institutional church. The staff that I'm on at the church I'm at now is a very different place, and it welcomes.
00;14;15;13 - 00;14;38;03
Unknown
We're really welcoming of different journeys and different ways of thinking. And so, you know, or I probably wouldn't be on a church staff, you know, if it weren't that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that reminds me of what Toby said, right where he was talking about being with people and just holding the space with them, understanding that that there may be things with the old environment that are triggering.
00;14;38;05 - 00;14;59;15
Unknown
Right. You know, whatever, whatever that, that past story is. And, you know, so sometimes people change whole denominations or they might go from being evangelical to being orthodox or from Catholic to, you know, evangelical. I mean, like like we kind of st we kind of change major theology streams because those are different experiences of yeah, of church in profound ways.
00;14;59;15 - 00;15;33;18
Unknown
And, and Toby just, you know, talking about creating a space that was that people could come into and, and they could have a conversation about Jesus without being distracted by all the things that they were working through. And I love his I love the way that they say in their community that we're guides that gatekeepers. Right. And I think it's unfortunate and I think it's true and maybe unintentional that like pastors and seminaries or whatever, they're kind of they're kind of launched into ministry being taught.
00;15;33;18 - 00;16;00;09
Unknown
You're the interpreter of everything for your church. And so it's your job to tell people what they should believe, you know? Right. Because they're trained that orthodoxy or that agreement of belief. Yeah. Is the thing that unites us is the thing that unites us. Whereas now, I think the journey toward Jesus is the thing that unites us. Yeah.
00;16;00;16 - 00;16;27;18
Unknown
And so so yeah, I think, I think if we could if, if a lot of us as church leaders could just make that shift of I'm here to help be a guide in a community. I mean, that's what God's called me to. That's why I did all the extra education or whatever, or studied Greek or whatever, you know, I'm just here to be a guide then, as opposed to a gatekeeper.
00;16;27;18 - 00;17;00;15
Unknown
Not only would people not be kind of pushed into deconstruction, but it would it would actually be freer to them in ministry as well. I think they would. It's messier, but but I think it enlivens all the things that we're called to as ministers, you know? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm fortunate that way. In the first deconstruction space, it I was in a church of gatekeepers and it resulted in my whole family getting kicked out of the church.
00;17;00;15 - 00;17;20;00
Unknown
So in that first time, I mean, fortunately my parents have always just taught us to have a deep relationship with God and they haven't been dogmatic. And so my brother and my sister and I have never left our faith, even as we've been on a pretty amazing journey. But, you know, so the first one, they were all gatekeepers.
00;17;20;00 - 00;17;41;20
Unknown
And and being kicked out of church is like a really intense thing because you're trying to pursue Jesus like that, that you pursue Jesus out of the walls of the church because in there and they're sending you. But then in the second one, I was part of just this amazing faith community where everybody was guides, literally like mountain guides and wilderness guides and, and everything.
00;17;41;20 - 00;18;02;09
Unknown
And so everybody held that posture. And it's like this community of 200 people to help just hold that space with me. And where one person didn't like was like, I have no idea how to how to help you with this. Not that they were looking for answers, but they just didn't even know how to encourage or coach. And they would be like, okay, go talk to this person.
00;18;02;09 - 00;18;25;03
Unknown
And that person would be like, Oh yeah, this doesn't intimidate me. Let me just sit with you. And sometimes they had wisdom and sometimes they just had presence. And so like I learned to not be afraid of the questions. And they, and they did it as a group project like my Growth and Development was the group was a project of the group as not in a bad project way, but like, like they weren't trying to fix me.
00;18;25;03 - 00;18;49;03
Unknown
They just took collective responsibility for me as a disciple of Jesus, and they did that for everyone else, right? So sure, it's just phenomenal. And they taught me a lot about, you know, their stories and journeys of deconstruction and where they were and and how they learned to trust God more. So yeah, I think if we if we hold it as if we hold it individually, we're going to feel overwhelmed by different people's stories.
00;18;49;03 - 00;19;09;18
Unknown
I think as Toby talked about, you know, he's not the right person necessarily to walk with everybody, right? That's true of all of us, But we can do it as a community then I think we can be a place where people can deconstructed, reconstruct without losing their faith. Yeah. Yeah. There's this quote and we're on MacLaren's faith after doubt.
00;19;10;19 - 00;19;34;00
Unknown
And he says, To my surprise, I discovered that at the heart of my own tradition in the Bible, I had been reading my whole life, and especially in the life and teachings of Jesus, Mary, Paul, James, John, you know, etc., the fresh understanding of faith my heart was thirsty for had been waiting like a hidden spring all along.
00;19;34;22 - 00;20;02;12
Unknown
And so, you know, I think I think sometimes it's it's that what we've been longing for is there and it's not necessarily attached to, you know, the institution or the people or something like that that have given us the distaste or pushed us into kind of a new, new way of thinking. And in community, I think is where those hidden springs are found, right, in other people's stories.
00;20;02;12 - 00;20;26;13
Unknown
Right. Because someone can be a guide and say, Oh, but what about this? And it becomes a hidden spring that was there all along, you know? And so community is so important to journey in this things together. Yeah. I think the research shows that whether or not a person loses their faith in the deconstructive spaces and the two different ones really has to do with the community, right?
00;20;26;15 - 00;21;00;04
Unknown
So the community says, Well, for you to ask questions means you don't have faith, right? And they kick you out like you're much more likely to abandon your faith because you don't have somebody to show you those springs and you're going to end up just wandering over there. While I feel like in the research shows that a community that can hold that, then if you hang on to your faith, even while you find different beliefs about things or or examine your beliefs and come, you know, come to the same conclusion, come to different conclusions.
00;21;00;13 - 00;21;23;10
Unknown
But the community really is the key factor in whether or not people keep their faith. So, you know, if we do it alone, we're more likely to lose our faith. But if we but finding somebody like that group you have, that's more likely to help us endure and just not lose sight of how God is also moving in the situation that we still are in.
00;21;23;10 - 00;21;46;08
Unknown
God story. Yeah, I mean, think about the disciples and what they must have been thinking as a group, because most of these guys probably and I'm sure they were, they were used to Hebraic rhythms of faith and the temple and sacrifice and all these things. And then Jesus comes along and starts to deconstruct thing. I mean, that's basically what he's doing.
00;21;46;26 - 00;22;08;10
Unknown
So they are a community walking through this and and you even see it a few times in scripture, where is you know, it may not say it, but you can see Jesus say something and you can imagine them just looking at each other like what? Like we're going to eat with what? Who sinners and tax collectors. Are you kidding?
00;22;08;23 - 00;22;44;06
Unknown
And so he's like teaching them along the way and they find these new springs or this new way, this new kingdom, which is gospel good news, right? And so I think, you know, maybe even our deconstruction is a discovery of good news, what the gospel really is. And at times, because, you know what people like Nicole or what Tobi has experienced or what Greg Gray is shifting from can feel a little more legal mystic.
00;22;45;18 - 00;23;26;22
Unknown
And so just like Jesus leading from a more legalistic culture into the good news Kingdom right? That's based on relationship with him. Maybe that's what we can seek to is a gospel and you could just call it we're looking for good news, not deconstruct. And, you know, yeah, I mean, I think if my hope is for the people who are listening to this and the communities that are listening to this, the communities see themselves as having a vital role, not in having answers, but in having presence and patience and and at least just continuing to recenter the conversation on Jesus.
00;23;27;09 - 00;23;58;07
Unknown
Right. So where's Jesus? Who is Jesus in this moment for us? What is what might Jesus be saying to us? Where is the example in Scripture and we can walk away from or let all the rest of it go and find that centered set on on Jesus's life, on us. So as a community focused on Jesus, I mean, I don't know what we figure out or if we figure anything out, but at least we can have that unity in him, which I think is the promise on the other side of the Tower of Babel.
00;23;58;12 - 00;24;32;23
Unknown
Yeah, that's my hope. That's my hope for the communities as we walk forward. Yeah. And I would just I would just say to anyone, whether you're a pastor, one wondering about things or just a person, you know, trying to frame a new paradigm of Jesus and God and faith that you're not alone. I mean, there I mean, we know there are just scores of people that have been part of church or faith, and there are scores of pastors out there asking questions.
00;24;32;23 - 00;24;54;11
Unknown
And whatever spectrum of this you're in, you're not alone. And and I know that we would offer to help try to help connect to communities. But, I mean, whatever city it is, whatever state it is, there are communities of people that are trying to figure this out. And I have to find one, you know, a journey in it.
00;24;55;05 - 00;24;58;00
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. It's it's my prayer, too. Yeah. Yeah.
00;25;00;12 - 00;25;21;00
Unknown
Well, I appreciate you sharing that because I think the the danger would be feeling that we're alone and that we can get lost in the wilderness all by ourselves. So as the African parable says, you know, if you want to go fast, go alone. But if you want to go far, go together. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. That's great.
00;25;21;00 - 00;25;30;27
Unknown
Right. Well, thank you for being with us. We just hope that these conversations help you find the journey of deconstructing without losing your faith.
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