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Unknown
Hi and welcome to Faithful Deconstruction. I'm Jesse Crocheting. And I'm Roland Smith.
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Unknown
In this episode, we want to talk about how to kind of move out of the space of deconstruction. Like if we've been faithfully deconstructing or deconstructing without losing our faith, then there has to be a journey out of the wilderness right there. There is naturally, maybe slowly, maybe not so slowly, a reconstruction of how we understand the world.
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Unknown
We don't we don't say stay, you know, deconstructed forever. Right. And so I want to talk about what has been helpful for you. What's been helpful for me and and maybe what would our courage might be to people if they're in the process of kind of working through the deconstruction space? You know, what can they what should they remember or might be helpful for them and maybe what might be helpful for someone if they're journeying with another person who's deconstructing.
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Unknown
And when I think about the Tower of Babel narrative that we've been tracking all along. I mean, I think at some point, obviously they had to settle somewhere. Like they didn't just stay wandering forever, right? They eventually made towns and farms and had families and went on and built a life somewhere away from the Tower of Babel. And and it makes me think about just again, that whole journey of being sent out, going to a new place, experiencing a new thing, and and how that's always seems to be part of God's story for us.
00;01;51;14 - 00;02;13;06
Unknown
And it brings me to the conclusion that if God thought deconstruction was bad, then he would not have made it a natural and regular part of the journey of faith. Yeah, right. So even though it is very painful and confusing and scary and it may be hard to watch somebody else go through, like if God thought it was bad, he would do things a different way, but he doesn't.
00;02;13;07 - 00;02;58;24
Unknown
So how then shall we live? Right. Jesus deconstructs Judaism. Yeah, it's. It seems like it's got to be part of his plan in some way. Yeah. I mean, the biblical storyline that we know of is littered with constant deconstructing and reconstructing, you know, what God intends for for people or where he's directing them or, or like we've said, you know, and I've said I think the Gospels are this huge deconstruction story, you know, of a huge shift from how people were interacting and worshiping and living and community together.
00;02;58;24 - 00;03;44;29
Unknown
And Jesus has given them a whole new way to do that. And so, yeah, deconstruction is a normal part of life. I think we probably do it in other parts of life also besides our faith. I mean, that's how we grow as probably through deconstruction. And it's just that, you know, that this time in this period and in the church and people like post-COVID not coming back to church and deconstruction being this word that's become kind of a buzz, buzz word, I think it's it's put a fear maybe in churches and in leadership and those kinds of things where they just they just react and say, oh, you're losing your faith, you know, and it's
00;03;44;29 - 00;04;15;29
Unknown
not losing your faith. It's a part of it's really kind of part of the natural process, you know? Right. Of refining, refining sanctification, as Paul called it. Right. So we we lose. We shut off what ways is down And just like he talks of Philippians and and so we can cast off and focus more on what God has calling us or, or maybe there are other things that we thought were important and God's like actually in that's not as important to me as it's been to you.
00;04;15;29 - 00;04;42;04
Unknown
So let's leave that behind a little bit. But if you're if you're a pastor, a church leader, or curating some kind of a community and someone says to you, I'm I'm shedding what you have been offering, and I won't say whether it's good or bad. It's like whatever you've been offering, shedding that because my journey is leading me this way.
00;04;43;10 - 00;05;17;14
Unknown
That becomes a critique. Right. Instead of like blessing them on their new journey or helping them find a community where they can walk in that. Yeah, right. So because of it's it's this journey of identity reformation. And if my identity has been our certain faith tribe and our way of of doing church and my journey takes me to, you know, a different way of doing church, maybe I've been more evangelical and I'm becoming more liturgical because really, I'm an introvert, and that's just a little easier for me to connect with God, cause I'm now freaked out by everybody.
00;05;17;19 - 00;05;36;28
Unknown
Yeah, you know, it doesn't mean that one was bad and the other is good. It's just this one is a better fit for me. But it doesn't mean that we don't take the thing that we value, you know, that they're leaving behind. We don't take that personally because it. Because it can. Right. And we're afraid we're going to lose these relationships.
00;05;38;01 - 00;06;07;08
Unknown
So what has been helpful for you for being with people in their in their place of deconstruction? You know, how would you coach somebody who might be thinking that they're in a deconstructive space either the first one or the second one right now? Well, and I feel like I mean, I feel like I'm I've definitely been, you know, reconstruct acting for quite a while.
00;06;07;23 - 00;06;40;00
Unknown
There's still things that deconstruct along the way. And so it's almost like it's almost like Toby mentioned breadcrumbs. And when he said it, I, you know, I wrote it down actually afterwards. It's almost like picking at bread certain breadcrumbs along the way. And so I remember when a big deconstructive process happened in me and we kind of left our my church position and kind of an institutional framework.
00;06;40;00 - 00;07;03;09
Unknown
You know, I started picking things back up. Hmm. That felt helpful. That that felt like I was closer to God because of this, whether it was a practice or whatever. So I was figuring out the things that I shared, right, that I was leaving behind and then keeping the things the and like putting it in my knapsack as I'm going along.
00;07;03;10 - 00;07;34;25
Unknown
You know, so if you imagine kind of walking a path of reconstruction and you're like, Oh yeah, that thing shedding that, I don't want to pick that back up. But this thing that I found, I want to keep that and, and put this you on a backpack and keep it with me. I think that's helpful. Whether you're a pastor or you're, you know, a churchgoer that's trying to reconstruct something in your faith is don't put the pressure on.
00;07;34;25 - 00;08;03;11
Unknown
It's black or white. Right? But it's more that there are all these aspects of relationship with God and your faith and how that how those things interact. And you can kind of find the things that that connect you in a deeper way. I do think keeping your keeping your eye on Jesus and, you know, with your goal of being to love God, to love your neighbor, I mean, those were the goals we were given.
00;08;03;20 - 00;08;27;09
Unknown
If you just keep those goals, you don't even have to keep the goal of I'm going to believe everything the Bible says This way you can you can take that journey and find the things that are helpful, you know, as you journey kind of back into a new understanding. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I also remember when Toby said that, and I thought it was beautiful because there are things that I have.
00;08;27;28 - 00;08;53;16
Unknown
There were rituals I let go of, but then there were actually rituals I picked up. I do a lot more contemplation time. Like the old Vienna, and in different ways of engaging with the spirit and with and with the text with the Bible than I used to. One thing that was helpful for me is I actually got a different translation of the Bible than the one that I had been reading, that I had memorized my whole life because I needed to.
00;08;54;00 - 00;09;18;06
Unknown
I needed to encounter it in a different way. And then I would sit with Jesus and say, Jesus, tell me what this means. So instead of trying to, like, read commentaries, which I had done for a long time, you know, I was just like, okay, I don't know what I think about this and would have this small group conversation with with Jesus on what the Bible would say and be like.
00;09;18;08 - 00;09;35;19
Unknown
I don't understand that. I don't agree with that. Like, like we would have a dialog. And then I found other people who were a little more okay with that kind of thing, caging the scripture in. And then maybe I could hear a little bit through them maybe, or at least know that there were different ways to look at a passage.
00;09;36;25 - 00;09;58;29
Unknown
And if you know, doesn't mean we didn't know which one was wrong, which means, I don't know. We just became more open handed about it and could see the beauty of each different understanding and the mystery in the way that God revealed himself through to us personally, through each one of those. So it became more focused and yet way more open at the same time.
00;09;59;05 - 00;10;33;01
Unknown
And changing translations just kind of helped me with that. I didn't stay stuck in my mental rut. I still I mean, I still read probably four or five different translations. And if I'm, you know, like if I'm going to teach something or preach on Sunday or something like that, I mean, I'll look at it in probably ten different translations just to try to get a sense of it, because I don't think any English translation is necessarily the pure interpretation of that ancient language.
00;10;33;01 - 00;10;52;28
Unknown
You know. So, yes, I agree with that. The other thing I was thinking about was, you know, there was a there was a point in my marriage with Katie where we we were having a hard time early on in our marriage. And we had we went to counseling and the counselor said something that has just always stuck with me.
00;10;52;28 - 00;11;25;05
Unknown
And I think it I think it applies to this as well. He said, basically, you're not trying to save your marriage. You're trying to discover what your new marriage is going to be. Hmm. You know, and so it was like instead of like, holding on to this, you know, this framework of something that felt unhealthy or led us to unhealthy, it was like now was we know we're going to stay in community together.
00;11;25;08 - 00;11;48;18
Unknown
Right. So what what is the new thing that that's going to look like? And so I think in deconstruction, that could be helpful thought. It's not you're trying to save your old faith or something like that. It's like you're trying to discover what Jesus actually wants for you, you know, in relation shit. And like Greg said, we're saying, you know, it's like it's messy, it's hard.
00;11;49;19 - 00;12;14;02
Unknown
But, you know, I asked him the question, you know, do you feel more focused on what God's called you to do? And he said, Yeah, absolutely. You know, so that hidden spring, you know, that I read last episode, it's like there is a hidden spring. So you just get with people and you walk the path and you discover it together, you know?
00;12;14;20 - 00;12;41;28
Unknown
Yeah. I think the the fear that we have when we're watching somebody else go through deconstruction or that, you know, if they come to us and say, I think I'm doing this, is we're afraid that they're going to lose their faith. Right. And that instinct of, you know, the potential loss of something can cause us to to grasp which looks like control, which looks like managing, which looks like, you know, just trying to shove the right answers, you know, down them and make them, you know, believe them.
00;12;42;08 - 00;13;06;11
Unknown
Just hang on to it. Just repeat it to yourself 100 times. Well, if that was going to work, it would have already worked. Yeah, but it doesn't. And so if we can believe that, that, that the goal is to just help them discover their new relationship with God, You know, maybe that can help us not grasps or so much.
00;13;06;18 - 00;13;31;25
Unknown
And I know that for me as a disciple maker, watching somebody else go through their journey of questions and struggles and doubts has increased. My Faith in God is the author of their story. Right. I can't make them believe any one thing. I can't make them agree with me. I have spiritual children who disagree with me on very, you know, important things that are important to me.
00;13;32;08 - 00;13;57;23
Unknown
But I think it's beautiful that they disagree with me because that means I taught them the most important lesson, which is that that they have their own relationship with God. And they've got it. I have to trust that God is the author of their story just as much as he's the author of my story. And so the struggle as a spiritual parent has increased my faith and trust in God on behalf of them as much as, you know, my own journey.
00;13;58;00 - 00;14;28;01
Unknown
Well, I mean, knowing how much I've changed in some of my views of of things, you know, how how God interacts with certain cultural things or my own beliefs, you know, in those things, how much I've grown, you know, in my awareness of people in the margins and women in leadership and all all these things have changed from my twenties to 60.
00;14;28;03 - 00;14;59;08
Unknown
Now, it would be such a scary thing to think at any one point I was the purveyor of exact truth right to someone. And, you know, and I a little bit shudder at some of my early sermons and those kinds of things because because I know I stood up there and it was just as arrogant as could be to just kind of present like, here's what you should believe about us as opposed to here's how I look at this.
00;14;59;09 - 00;15;28;25
Unknown
Here's where I am in my journey with this, which is a permission for everyone to interpret and journey with God as the author, not maybe the author. Right. It's not. It's that cruciform that crucified life that Jesus invites us into that continually humbles us. Sure. Right. I also think about the things that I taught in ministry in my twenties, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, yeah, Lord, forgive me.
00;15;28;25 - 00;15;49;19
Unknown
I feel like I feel like I have to pay penance to teach people that the new lesson I perpetuated problems and people aren't in ministry because of my leadership. Like, like I've definitely, definitely screwed people. Don't you wish you could go back, find everyone and just say, I'm so sorry? Well, to some degree I actually have to some degree I've reached out to them.
00;15;49;20 - 00;16;10;24
Unknown
If I saw their contact information and just just to just apologize like, I'm so sorry that I taught you this and that I was a bad representation of of Jesus to you. And some of them responded back, some of them haven't. And that's I mean, that's totally fine, right? I mean, I, I didn't do it to reconnect the relationship.
00;16;10;24 - 00;16;33;03
Unknown
I did it because I had healing and there were some healing I needed to experience. So having having repented to those I still have contact information for has been an important part of my journey. Well, yeah. And I don't know what it's done for them. Yeah, but I mean, I just pray the Lord continues to pour grace on them.
00;16;33;10 - 00;16;52;11
Unknown
Yeah. You know, it makes me think about the season in this moment where we're all kind of going through this thing together. I mean, one of the things that we talked about at the very beginning was that every 500 years kind of pattern that exists in history where there's a giant recalibration and how we feel like we are in one.
00;16;52;26 - 00;17;19;20
Unknown
And I remember sitting with the Lord in 2020 and in the year that was the crazy and, and just kind of reflecting on the fact that because of the pandemic, we were experiencing something as a planet, you know, in a uniform kind of way that had never happened before in the in the entirety of history of of the human race.
00;17;20;11 - 00;17;39;20
Unknown
So even when we had these big global things like the different world wars of the last century, they still didn't affect every continent the same and they didn't impact them all. You know, and even the previous pandemics, you know, kind of had a slow wave over over the globe. But here, like we all had the same kind of six months or nine months together.
00;17;39;20 - 00;17;59;03
Unknown
And that had never happened before in human history. Mm hmm. And I was like, wow, okay, God, I don't know if you cause things or you allow things. And I don't even know if that's the right question. But like, why would you what would what do you want from us out of this? You know, what's the redemptive storyline in this?
00;17;59;03 - 00;18;19;16
Unknown
And this is what the Lord I feel like the Lord said to me, and it's the longest sentence the Lord I feel like is ever said to me. So I wrote it down. I have to read it because it's so long. Yeah, but this is what I feel like, the Lord revealed. He said that that this corporate disruption and we could even say maybe corporate deconstruction.
00;18;20;27 - 00;18;55;01
Unknown
We go through it all together because it reduces shame, increases vulnerability, and increases connectedness because positive change only happens in environments of love. And I and what I took away from that, or what I interpreted that to mean is that God has allowed this to happen to so many of us. At the same time, like this big, you know, epic change so that his hope would be that we would find that vulnerability, that humility that nobody knows what to do, but we wouldn't feel shame in it because we're all in it together.
00;18;55;01 - 00;19;16;19
Unknown
Like we all like I don't know. I don't know. And so we're not shaming one another for not knowing. And that that would increase our connectedness to one another and centeredness, I think, around Jesus. So, you know, I think God has purpose for the church in this purpose for the refinement and the and the beauty of the bride in this.
00;19;17;07 - 00;19;37;26
Unknown
But, you know, that's that's why the goal of faithful reconstruction on the other side would be what I hope that people just keep journeying to one step at a time as you're able to wake up and take a baby, step towards that or or ask a more transparent question, have a little more transparency with God about how you're feeling.
00;19;38;13 - 00;19;58;06
Unknown
Because for me, it's led to a deeper, a deeper faith, a deeper connection with God. And and that has resulted in more freedom. Yeah. And I find on my other side of reconstruction is I haven't lost my faith. That thing that I was trying to grasp. Mm hmm. I actually found more of it by letting it go. Right.
00;19;58;17 - 00;20;31;11
Unknown
Yeah, It's a it's kind of like pushing on a string. Mm hmm. You know, it's kind of. You can't imagine pushing on a string, but. But it's one of those things that is counterintuitive, you know? So I think the the intuitive thing is, if I frame everything nice and clean my theology, my church, what I believe, what I don't, all those kinds of things you feel you do feel safer and perhaps you are I don't know, maybe you're safer.
00;20;32;21 - 00;21;07;25
Unknown
But if you like, Greg said, I think engage the wildness of God. You step outside the bounded set and you allow yourself doubts which God can handle. Questions which I think God likes right there, because they demonstrate faith, because it teaches us things in that. Yeah, you know, and you allow yourself a certain amount of deconstruction. And I know some deconstructed processes are from abuse and those kinds of things which we don't desire.
00;21;08;04 - 00;21;32;28
Unknown
So I'm not saying like allow that kind of stuff, but I mean, step into the process that you're in. I think what you find is a fuller faith because of that. It's very counterintuitive to to say, you mean I'm gonna leave my framework of, you know, what I thought I was defined by to go find something new. Well, that feels really scary.
00;21;32;28 - 00;21;52;12
Unknown
And what's out there? Well, Jesus is out there. God's out there, and the Holy Spirit will guide you to that. Yeah. So? So whether it's the season of the world or the season of our life, or even abuse and trauma, that leads us into the the wilderness. Yeah. You know, the God's goal is to remake us. Right, Right.
00;21;52;18 - 00;22;23;07
Unknown
Always redeeming, right. Redeeming. Right. And I mean, the the hope that I have for the church here is that, you know, personally, I believe that we were building a Tower of Babel called the North American Attraction Old Church. And God shook it so that he could show us that which was of the kingdom and that which was in, and that his his redemptive purpose would be that here on the other side of it, we can recreate co-create with him.
00;22;23;18 - 00;22;55;15
Unknown
Mm hmm. Something new, Something new. And when we co-create with God, we know that it's holy. When we don't, we know that it'll never be holy. So he has. Yeah. This redemptive purpose is redemptive storyline for us in our reconstruction. The scary part is that it's probably more dispersed, just like babble. So we may look like I know we have friends that are proponents of smaller is better, you know, than trying to build big institutions.
00;22;55;15 - 00;23;32;05
Unknown
I mean, perhaps So it may be smaller, it may be more dispersed, it may feel it may feel more disconnected. But I know that if the people of God are kind of dispersed out into the neighborhoods in the city, it's like they're always participating in that mission of destroying the kingdom of God. And so I really think it has the potential to be better as a service versus, you know, in finding other people, being places where other people who speak that same kind of language and ethos like, like Toby is created.
00;23;32;09 - 00;24;05;14
Unknown
Yeah. Can find a place to maybe reconstruct if they've been wandering in the wilderness for. For quite a while. Mm hmm. Well, do you have a hope or a prayer or a blessing? I do. I actually actually want to read one out of the book I've been reading out of two or three times. There's a there's a really nice kind of a benediction type prayer that that was was taken was taken from Kathy McShane, who's a methodist minister.
00;24;05;26 - 00;24;35;10
Unknown
But MacLaren repeats it. I'm just one and he's going to posture myself to receive this. Okay. And hear this. Yeah. And I'll try to read this slowly. So we catch this. This is Blessed are the Curious for their curiosity honors reality. Blessed are the uncertain. And those with second thoughts for their minds are still open. Blessed are the wanderers, for they shall find what is wonderful.
00;24;36;11 - 00;25;05;29
Unknown
Blessed are those who question their answers for their horizons will expand forever. Blessed are those who often feel foolish, for they are wiser than those who always think themselves wise. Blessed are those who are scolded. Suspend, affected and labeled as heretics by the gatekeepers for the prophets. And mystics were treated in the same way by the gatekeepers of their day.
00;25;07;06 - 00;25;43;10
Unknown
Blessed are those who know their unknowing, for they shall have the last laugh. Blessed are the perplexed, for they have reached the frontiers of contemplation. Blessed are they who become cynical about their cynicism and suspicious of their suspicion, for they will enter the second innocence. Blessed are the doubters, for they shall see through false gods. And blessed are the lovers, for they shall see God everywhere.
00;25;44;08 - 00;26;13;22
Unknown
Oh, man, that's so beautiful. Amen. Yeah. Your man. We want to thank you for being with us on on faithful deconstruction and discussing and having conversations around the journey of deconstruction with the hope that through a more authentic, you know, depth with one another, authentically receiving ourselves where we're at receiving one another, that you felt a little more seen, a little more known, and maybe a little less alone.
00;26;14;02 - 00;26;35;14
Unknown
Yeah. And continue the conversation with someone, even if it's stopping here. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you for tuning in for faithful Deconstruction. As a listener to this podcast, we want to make available to you a free download entitled Six Questions of Faithfulness. There are questions that will help you honor both God and the journey you're on.
00;26;36;09 - 00;26;48;24
Unknown
You're not alone and you're not lost. Even if it might feel like it. Go to who ology echo for access to our free resources today. That's W.H.O. phone allergy y dot CEO.
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